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How to make the world a better place?
http://www.movielol.org/atheneforums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1851
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Author:  rspwan [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:30 am ]
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While the IMF, WTO, World Bank, etc, touting capitalism and globalization as solutions to the problem of poverty, have for the past decades been trying to solve the problem - the problem has in fact become worse.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp

More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening

That is to say, the rich have been getting richer while the poor have been getting poorer.

source: 2007 Human Development Report (HDR), United Nations Development Program, November 27, 2007, p.25
http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2007-2008/
complete report
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr_200720 ... mplete.pdf
summary of complete report
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr_200720 ... nglish.pdf


This happens both world-wide and locally. When Allen Greenspan became head of the Federal Reserve, CEOs made about 40 times as much as blue collar workers, when Greenspan left the difference had become 10 times as large, with CEOs making 400 times as much as blue collar workers.
Greenspan does not deny this, he only denies that it is a result of "trickle down economics" where the rich are given more money in order to solve the problem of poverty.

see Naomi Klein vs. Alan Greenspan on Inequality
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FGug8T53K-E

Author:  rspwan [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:43 am ]
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zxc wrote:
Rabid wrote:
There is no way the US, or pretty much anyone for that matter, would stick their neck out that far for farmers half the world away.

But so many countries have been forced to remove trade barriers like tariffs, by the WTO. What about the US? How is it fair that the US has trade barriers while most of the rest of the world doesn't?


Not to mention that the IMF etc *do* stick out their neck for farmers half way across the world (or at least they say so themselves, though not literally in those words):

The IMF loans billions to 3rd world nations, telling them the loan and following the conditions of the loan will help lift citizens of those 3rd world nations out of poverty.
Many 3rd world nations have trouble to repay those loans and quite often (under international pressure) the demand to repay is dropped, leaving the the IMF/World Bank with a loss.

Those loans are an investment, and as with any investment there's a chance these will be to little return on the investment.

How is that not sticking out their neck for farmers half way across the world?

Author:  zxc [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:45 am ]
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Also, almost all the loans are conditional ie. the country has to reduce trade barriers or privatise particular sectors

Author:  rspwan [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:06 am ]
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zxc wrote:
Also, almost all the loans are conditional ie. the country has to reduce trade barriers or privatise particular sectors


Also if the lending nation wants to use some of that money to subsidize its farmers (who are much poorer than the poorest US farmers) the trade agreement mandates that the percentage of interest on that loan is higher than the percentage of interest on the loan that the developing nation has to repay to the IMF.

This makes it essentially impossible for poor nations to use IMF money to subsidise its farmers.

Author:  Rabid [ Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:33 pm ]
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rspwan wrote:
Rabid wrote:
I don't think they're societal problems; I think it's a problem of human nature.

How is it that societal problems are independent from human nature?
Societal problems can be fixed; human nature cannot. Saying something that cannot be avoided is a problem that should be fixed detracts from the solvable problems


rspwan wrote:
Quote:
I'd argue that, as a species, we have way more love, empathy, and understanding than we did in the past.

Then how can it be that human nature is such a problem?
The OP said human nature was a problem, I did not mean to lump human nature and societal problems in the same category as I seem to have done

rspwan wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Capitalism is not viable in the long run


History disagrees


Right, just look at the Great Depression, and look at the state the economy is in now. And look at the destruction of the environment.
We pulled out of the great depression, didn't we? And this recession is sure to end before long. Just because an economic system has fluctuations does not mean it isn't viable, just means that it's volatile.

rspwan wrote:
Quote:
The problem with trying to solve poverty is just one small thing; it's impossible. A person's ability to generate wealth is based on their ability to create capital. For my purposes, I'll define capital as "a good or service that is in demand and of value."


According to that definition of capital even labor is capital. Yet i think there is a vast difference between having billions in the bank on the one hand, and on the other hand having only one's labor as 'capital'.
Yes, there is a vast difference, but when it comes to putting a minimum amount of food on the table, a blue collar worker and a millionaire can both do it. I don't think anybody is debating the fact that there are absurdly rich people (some of whom possibly don't deserve it), but not every has to/needs to/deserves to be rich.

rspwan wrote:
Quote:
In an overpopulated world, too many people vying for the same spot


Don't you agree that at the very least inequality of wealth distribution is *also* a factor in causing poverty?

Yes, I agree. But the surest way to make sure there is enough to go around is if there were much less people.

Author:  n1187 [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:10 am ]
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I believe the best way is to educate. Some people don't know certain things because they aren't exposed much. Some people are just really stupid and I mean really stupid, but it probably isn't their fault. I bet if everyone was raised the same way, they might be the same, but people would probably get along better. However, certain families don't do so well. So I'm ultimately not sure. People will probably always be different and I don't know if it can be stopped.

Author:  rspwan [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:36 pm ]
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Rabid wrote:
rspwan wrote:
Rabid wrote:
I don't think they're societal problems; I think it's a problem of human nature.

How is it that societal problems are independent from human nature?
Societal problems can be fixed; human nature cannot.


So you do think that societal problems are unrelated to human nature, in spite of the fact that societies consist of humans?

Quote:
rspwan wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Capitalism is not viable in the long run


History disagrees


Right, just look at the Great Depression, and look at the state the economy is in now. And look at the destruction of the environment.
We pulled out of the great depression, didn't we?


We pulled out of the great depression thanks to government measures that many of the most vocal supporters of capitalism decry as socialism. The Great Depression hardly affected the super wealthy who caused it.

Quote:
And this recession is sure to end before long.


Only time will tell.

Quote:
rspwan wrote:
According to that definition of capital even labor is capital. Yet i think there is a vast difference between having billions in the bank on the one hand, and on the other hand having only one's labor as 'capital'.
Yes, there is a vast difference, but when it comes to putting a minimum amount of food on the table, a blue collar worker and a millionaire can both do it.


All it takes to put a minimum amount of food on the table is a small income, of which there's nothing left after having used it to put food on the table (figurativly speaking that is, practically most people live from paycheck to paycheck; nothing left after puting food on the table for a month).

But the millionaire still has vast amounts of capital after having spend some of it on food.

Not to mention that many workers do have trouble putting a minimum amount of food on the table, and it's not because they don't work hard; most work a full time job or several part-time jobs.

Fiscally, economically and practically there is big difference between income and capital, that's why one is called capital and the other is not.

Labor is needed to generate income, and labor can create capital, but that does not mean labor IS capital.

I suppose the distinction is between 'capital' (according to your definition) that needs to be invested for survival (labor) on the one hand, and on the other hand capital that can be invested on things beyond just survival (that's what most people mean by "capital").
I think the distinction between those two is so significant that it's not proper to call those two things by the same name.

If nothing else, can we at least call one "labor capital" and the other "capital capital"?

Author:  rspwan [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:54 pm ]
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wiki on "capital"

Capital (economics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)

"capital goods or real capital refers to already-produced durable goods available for use as a factor of production. ...

Capital goods may be acquired with money or financial capital."

...


Financial capital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_capital
"Financial capital is money used by entrepreneurs and businesses to buy what they need to make their products or provide their services."

...


Broadening the notion
"The relationship between financial capital, money, and all other styles of capital, especially human capital or labor, is assumed in central bank policy and regulations regarding instruments as above."

...


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=capital
capital
...
"2.
a. Wealth in the form of money or property, used or accumulated in a business by a person, partnership, or corporation.
b. Material wealth used or available for use in the production of more wealth.
c. Human resources considered in terms of their contributions to an economy"
...


So you are correct that labor is a form of capital.
But it is usually not called just "capital" but is called "human capital" or "Human resources".

Author:  Olle Koort [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:33 pm ]
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n1187 wrote:
I bet if everyone was raised the same way, they might be the same,

this one is intresting. One of my mums childhood friends who now works as a proffesor in psychology. she is a very very intelligent and educated person, and she is also very loving and caring.
She is however sterile (i dont know why really but i guess it was caused by some illness) so she and her husband (who also is a educated and smart person) adopted a child from africa.
I have known this guy since i was little cause my parents and his parents have always been good friends and use to do a lot of stuff togheter, and i can say that this guy was raised with much love, care and intellectual stimulation from his parents, but he still grew up to be a violent, criminal and next to braindead git with no sense of empathy or respect for society.
This is because he was simply born stupid. There is no way in hell that you can blame this one on the parents or the childhood, he had the best parents and the best childhood that you could possibly get and he still turned out to be a psychopath.
I know this is just an example but it still proves that its your DNA and not social conditions that determine who you are.

(note that im not implying that africans are generaly more stupid)

Author:  spoirier [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:55 pm ]
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I had deep thoughts about this question of how to make the world a better place since many years, examining the many problems occuring in the world and how to logically solve them, and I finally came up with a very general solution, that I describe on my web site. Since it is rather abstract and so general, it may take some effort to understand how it would effectively solve many problems.
But before discussing the solution, you may be interested to read this philosophical analysis of the problems to solve, where I define my disagreements with religious concepts, about the question of egoism, and I express some of the fundamental principles on which I develop my liberalism (which may not be exactly the same as the usual ones).

Now, concerning the particular problems you were mentioning: poverty in the 3rd World, here are my thoughts:
First, I would say that poverty has a number of causes and should not be just simply considered as "one problem": people cannot manage to make a good living because many sorts of things are going wrong.
As international market makes prices comparable all over the world, the poverty problem may in large part be summed up by saying "they can't find a good job".
Now, why can't they find a good job. There are different reasons:
- Education
- Genetic causes, as was expressed in the last post
- Malnutrition that weakens them (that is itself caused by poverty)
- Local economic reasons that makes it harder to find a job in a country than in another. These can themselves be divided into several factors.

Concerning local economy of poor countries, one of the main problems is that they don't have the necessary money to invest in business. A solution came out with microcredit and microfinance. But these banks can't be everywhere. My project would include an efficient online monetary system with peer to peer credit, so that it could work wherever there is internet access. You may say it's not yet the case everywhere now, but anyway it will take time to implement, and the hardware of information technology will progress meanwhile.
Other problems may be the administrative formalities and regulations that make it difficult to set up a business. So much that most of the economy there works underground.
Another solution to the local economic problem of employment, is offshoring. This is what brings jobs to where they are most demanded. If offshoring makes a big profit to the companies that operate it while keeping salaries rather low, it's because they are not many enough. If they were manier, then they would compete with each other bringing more jobs to the poor countries, and salaries would grow.
Information technology offers more opportunities for outsourcing, that can be individual in the form of telecommuting. However it would still be hard for a company to have a telecommuting worker in another country, for two reasons. One is the administrative formalities concerning work, its rules and its taxation. As a libertarian, I think those formalities should not exist in the first place. The other reason is the problem of trust towards people only met online. This problem of online trust is the core of what my software project aims to solve. This is such an important problem that it is also the cause why I could not implement my project yet: I had the misfortune to try having it done by programmers that were in fact unreliable.

Another general cause of poverty and unemployment, is the relative lack of capital. Indeed, capital is an important production factor, as appears in the form of the part of capital income with respect to the labor income. The market stability implies that the capital income expresses to how much the production would vary wrt a variation of capital with constant labor, while the labor income expresses how much it would vary wrt a variation of the quantity of work with constant capital. Therefore, the more you observe capital profit and low salaries, the more it means that larger savings would be needed to improve general wealth, and to increase employment and salaries. Of course, saving money appears costly at first, but it is very profitable to all in the long run.
If there was not this nonsense of unfunded redistributive pension systems, then there would be much less poverty in the world.

Concerning the protectionism in agriculture by rich countries, I agree this would be indeed a cause of lack of development of poor countries. I think this requires a little more explanations to be really understood. Namely, saying that agriculture is a traditional activity of poor countries, something that they would naturally be good at, without these barriers. To develop, they would need to sell what they have (agricultural products) in order to buy technology. The artificial reduction of agricultural prices with respect to technological prices on the international market, is an obstacle to their development.

Author:  zxc [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

Olle Koort wrote:
This is because he was simply born stupid. There is no way in hell that you can blame this one on the parents or the childhood, he had the best parents and the best childhood that you could possibly get and he still turned out to be a psychopath.

That's interesting (and hard to believe), can please you go into more detail?

And spoirier, your webpage where you describe a solution is interesting (though it seems quite ambitious, as any solution to such a large problem would be) but how exactly can you get a real, working solution into action, when those that run the world want to maintain the status quo?

Author:  rspwan [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

spoirier wrote:
...the poverty problem may in large part be summed up by saying "they can't find a good job".
Now, why can't they find a good job. There are different reasons:
- Education
- Genetic causes, as was expressed in the last post
- Malnutrition that weakens them (that is itself caused by poverty)
- Local economic reasons that makes it harder to find a job in a country than in another.


And another one:
- there are many jobs that pay very badly. People who do those jobs are the "working poor". That's true in the US and much more so in the 3rd world.

Imagine if there'd be no jobs that pay poorly; much fewer people would be poor.

Author:  RevMortis [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:18 pm ]
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Proletariat Revolution?

Author:  spoirier [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 

zxc wrote:
Olle Koort wrote:
This is because he was simply born stupid. There is no way in hell that you can blame this one on the parents or the childhood, he had the best parents and the best childhood that you could possibly get and he still turned out to be a psychopath.

That's interesting (and hard to believe), can please you go into more detail?

You can see here some general information on heritability of character traits

zxc wrote:
And spoirier, your webpage where you describe a solution is interesting (though it seems quite ambitious, as any solution to such a large problem would be) but how exactly can you get a real, working solution into action, when those that run the world want to maintain the status quo?

The implementation essentially does not depend on the will of those who run the world. It's a matter of software programming. If just a couple of good web programmers made it in a few years of work, then I think those who run the world just can't block the change that would come from its use. Of course if the whole world was governed like China it would be much harder, but here people will be free to use it and this is enough to make it work.

Author:  rspwan [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

spoirier wrote:
zxc wrote:
And spoirier, your webpage where you describe a solution is interesting (though it seems quite ambitious, as any solution to such a large problem would be) but how exactly can you get a real, working solution into action, when those that run the world want to maintain the status quo?

The implementation essentially does not depend on the will of those who run the world. It's a matter of software programming. If just a couple of good web programmers made it in a few years of work, then I think those who run the world just can't block the change that would come from its use. Of course if the whole world was governed like China it would be much harder, but here people will be free to use it and this is enough to make it work.


I just had a quick look at your website. It looks like you did indeed put a lot of thought into it, and i see it has some good ideas. I'm impressed.

on edit:

Are you familiar with the work of Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winner for introducing the concept of "Information economics" and "Information asymmetry"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_economics
http://www.econlib.org/Library/Enc/Information.html

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